KDL42W653a - Motionflow setting disappeared!

[adam_cr]

HELP!

I bought myself a KDL42W653a last week and, initially, was very impressed. The first night I popped on a DVD, fiddled with the settings and found one for 'motionflow' which made the display look super fluid. At the same time, I also changed a setting for audio delay (in ms) because the audio became slightly out of sync with the picture.

Since that night, however, both options have disappeared. The image played from the DVD player is now back to 'normal' and absolutely nothing I change can get the 'motionflow' setting back. I've noticed that a number of people on the net have asked why the motionflow setting is not included on this model (despite it being a Motionflow "00hz TV!) but trust me, IT WAS THERE! It made a wonderful difference to the quality of films and now I'm pretty annoyed that it has gone. Has an erroneous system update since the night I plugged in the TV perhaps removed the option?

If anyone could help me I'd be really grateful... including Sony officials. 

[Chesterflaps]

---

@Robbo9999 wrote:

I've been trying to get to the bottom of "Motionflow XR 200Hz" with Sony support.  Boy, do they like to be vague - cynically I think to avoid the question & to fob off the customer when difficult questions are asked.  But anyway, I'm trying to tie them down into confirming that frame interpolation is used or not.  This is the crux of the Motionflow technology according to Sony's website, here is a link to a Sony website describing the Motionflow XR 200Hz that we are supposed to have on this TV:

http://www.sony-asia.com/microsite/bravia/led-backlit-lcd-tv-picture-quality.html

I've had a lot of back & forth discussions over e-mail with Sony support, and this is my latest response to them cut & pasted from my e-mail:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for coming back to me, but I do have some questions still on this topic of Motionflow on my TV.

You say that it is "not possible to turn off the Motionflow feature or change it on your TV model". Does that mean Motionflow is always turned on & being implemented at all Picture settings & Scene Selects?

Secondly, you say that the information that I requested asking if "Motionflow XR 200Hz" uses frame interpolation is confidential by saying that "the information you have asked for regarding the technology of the Motionflow feature is confidential to Sony, and we will not be able to share it". You must be wrong in your assertion, as you openly describe how Motionflow works at this Sony webpage:

http://www.sony-asia.com/microsite/bravia/led-backlit-lcd-tv-picture-quality.html

In fact, that web page says that Motionflow XR 200 Hz is "Powered by Image Blur Reduction, Frame Interpolation, and Backlight Blinking technology, this advanced 200Hz panel delivers ultra-smooth, ultra-precise, and ultra-detailed pictures.".  The reason for me wanting to get confirmation from Sony with whether this TV uses frame interpolation is two fold:  1) Motion doesn't seem that smooth to me, indicating my suspicion that this TV does not use frame interpolation, 2) numerous reviews of this TV prove that frame interpolation is not used (at this link:  http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/sony-kdl42w653-201308113237.htm).  This all leads me to the suspicion that this TV does not use the Motionflow that it is advertised as using.  The reason for all my e-mails to Sony support have been to seek specific clarification as to whether Motionflow (as Sony describe how Motionflow works) is being used on my TV.

I'm not satisfied with your response for all the above reasons.  Please could you look carefully over my points & questions, and respond to them please.  Please confirm ifMotionflow XR 200Hz is used on this TV, and also please confirm if the Motionflow feature functions in the manner described by your Sony website described at this link (http://www.sony-asia.com/microsite/bravia/led-backlit-lcd-tv-picture-quality.html). Please use the words 'frame interpolation' in your answer, as it is my suspicion that this TV doesn't use it, even though it is advertised by Sony as using it.

I have put my main questions in bold to make them clearer to you, as those are the parts that require answers from you,

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yep, so that's my e-mail to them, I'll probably let you know how they respond.  My suspicion is that this TV does not use Motionflow XR 200Hz in the manner described on the Sony website.  Specifically, I don't believe this TV uses frame interpolation, and it's this that I'm trying to get to the bottom of!  It's hell going through Sony support though, I'm gonna put a formal complaint in if they keep seem to be stalling & worming, being vague, etc.

---

Good work!

I wouldn't be able to go into the depth you have with this, but I can say for sure that there is no Motionflow in operation on this set. When watching football for example, it actually jerks at times not matter what picture setting I have it on. I've had this TV about 10 months now and I'm really annoyed at Sony because this was my reason for choosing this set over an LG. I wonder if I can get a refund based on false advertising.

Please let us know their repsonse, if there is one.

[Robbo9999]

Yes, I'll keep you posted as soon as I know more!  On a tangaent to this though, I found 3 clusters of dead pixels on my display a couple of days ago, visible on light or white backgrounds (about 6 pixels in total).  I think they're dead pixels, either that or dead thunderflies that have gotten in behind the screen between the backlight and the panel.  (I've contacted the supplier, not Sony, to see what they can do about that).

[Robbo9999]

Well, I had a response from Sony  (my previous e-mail to them is in my previous posts).

So, this is their reply:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you for your recent e-mail.

With reference to your sent query, and after further investigation done, this is to confirm that there is no option to activate/deactivate the “Motionflow” feature of your Sony KDL-42W653A TV when desired as the “Motionflow” settings are set automatically based on the scene selection.

However, you can adjust the scene mode and “LED Motion Mode” settings to suit your viewed scene as explained in the below link for your concern:

http://pdf.crse.com/manuals/13LW600114/EN/c_picscrn_europe_lk_lw_exceptpicmode.html

I hope that my e-mail has gone some way to clarifying this matter. Should you have any further questions or queries please do not hesitate to contact us back.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, that was Sony's e-mail above.  As you can imagine I did contact them back as they hadn't answered any of my questions, although there was a piece of useful information in their reply:  Motionflow is activated automatically when using certain Scene Selects.  Unfortunately they didn't say which ones!  So, this was my response to their e-mail:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for the response, we're getting closer, but you're still not answering my questions, I am finding Sony Support very frustrating, you are avoiding my questions and it really does feel like Sony has something to hide by not providing straight answers.

Now you're saying that Motionflow is activated by the different Scene Selects.  Question #1:  Which of the Scene Selects activate the Motionflow?  Which Scene Selects don't use Motionflow?

You didn't answer my questions about how Motionflow works, specifically whether or not Motionflow uses frame interpolation.  Question #2:  Does your Motionflow on the KDL-42W653A use frame interpolation?

Question#3:  Does Motionflow on this TV work in the manner described on the following Sony webpage (referring to Motionflow XR 200Hz)?

http://www.sony-asia.com/microsite/bravia/led-backlit-lcd-tv-picture-quality.html.  

Many thanks, I've outlined the questions I'd like answers to in bold type above (and also numbered each of the 3 questions!) so you can spot the questions without difficulty, please answer each of those questions in your next e-mail.  (I have decided to make my questions very clear to you in this manner, so that you can't miss them, as in our past e-mails Sony Support seemed to have selectively ignored or missed my questions, this leaves you in no doubt that I have asked you 3 questions that I'd like answers for please).

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hopefully Sony will respond with specific answers to my 3 questions.  We'll see.  If Sony Support continue to be evasive they are doing nothing but harming the supposed good reputation of Sony.  I am asking very straight forward questions about the technical specs of the TV, specs which are advertised as being included:  Motionflow XR-200Hz!  

I'll post back again with updates...

[Robbo9999]

You wouldn't believe what's happened.  Sony have removed the Motionflow XR 200Hz webpage from the link that I posted.  That re-directs to a standard Bravia Sony page now.  They changed this page & removed it since I posted this link up on this thread.  This is very dodgy behaviour!  Sony have gone down in my estimation hugely now.  However, you can still find a Google cached copy of the page I had linked, you can do this by going into Google & typing:  http://www.sony-asia.com/microsite/bravia/led-backlit-lcd-tv-picture-quality.html.  Then click on the cached copy option.  (If you don't know what I'm talking about, google "viewing cached web pages in google").

Actually, the easiest way to see a copy of the cached page that should be at that link is by copying & pasting this into your browser:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:qZBiIwyzBiYJ:www.sony-asia.com/microsite/bravia...

That's the link to the cached page that used to exist, that Sony have now removed.  Boy, this is some dodgy stuff that Sony are up to!

[Robbo9999]

Quick update, Sony Support have elevated my enquiry to the next level & the 'relevant technical department' so I'm currently awaiting a response.  These are the questions I'm expecting them to answer:

Question #1:  Which of the Scene Selects activate the Motionflow?  Which Scene Selects don't use Motionflow?

Question #2:  Does your Motionflow on the KDL-42W653A use frame interpolation?

 Question#3:  Does Motionflow on this TV work in the manner described on the following Sony webpage (referring to Motionflow XR 200Hz)?  Although they have taken this webpage down shortly after I sent them the link to their page where Motionflow XR 200Hz was described in how it functioned, so I can't include the link.  Also, the google cached page that I linked in my earlier post has also been removed - coincidence!??!  Anyway, I saved the webpage before they took it down, and this is how Sony described the functioning of Motionflow XR 200Hz:

"Get up to speed with fast-moving scenes.  Powered by Image Blur Reduction, Frame Interpolation, and Backlight Blinking technology, this advanced 200Hz panel delivers ultra-smooth, ultra-precise, and ultra-detailed pictures."

As you can see they cite "Frame Interpolation", and I suspect this TV does not use Frame Interpolation due to the many reviews that couldn't find evidence of it, as well as my own experience.  This is what I am pushing Sony on, I want my TV to have "Motionflow XR 200Hz", as described on their website!

[Robbo9999]

Well Sony Support have come back to me, answering all 3 questions I outlined in my posts above.  Here's their response:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you for contacting Sony support.

With reference to your sent query, and after further investigation done, please find below answers for your sent questions as requested for your concern:

1.       Which of the Scene Selects activate the Motionflow? Which Scene Selects do not use Motionflow?

        · Motionflow is disabled in following scenarios:

                     A.      When TV Scene selection is set to Game, Graphics or Photo.

                     B.      Picture mode is set to “Custom” with 3D & 4K material.

        · Naturally menu for Motionflow is not active in these cases.

2.       Does your Motionflow on the KDL-42W653A use frame interpolation?

 · Yes. The human eye can see a slight ‘judder’ as it perceives slight differences in position between successive TV frames. This judder is most noticeable when on-screen objects are moving rapidly, where there is a large difference between the image’s positions in each frame. By increasing the number of images seen every second TV produces a smoother, more natural TV picture.

 · Motionflow combines native panel frequency with other techniques to make pictures look far smoother, and more natural.

3.       Does Motionflow on this TV work in the manner described on the following Sony webpage (referring to Motionflow XR 200Hz)?

 · Yes, Motionflow works with the same mechanism in all models, it just differs depending on the assigned refresh rate for each model (for your KDL-42W653A, it is 200Hz while it can be lower/higher in other models).

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, these were definitely the answers I was looking for, and they've finally stopped being evasive & vague.  So, essentially, Motionflow 200Hz is automatically activated on all presets apart from Game/Graphics/& Photo.  And this Motionflow also uses frame interpolation apparently.  I am surprised though, because it doesn't look that smooth, and also given HDTVtest reviews showing no evidence of frame interpolation.  Well, I'm happy Sony finally gave me a succint answer even though I do still have doubts over whether frame interpolation is really used, but I don't know how I can test for that.  Given what Sony have said above, is there anyone reading this that knows how to test to prove conclusively if frame interpolation is being used, please post in this thread if you know?

(I'm going to leave this topic now, as I've researched & questioned as far as I can and am at least pleased to have achieved a straight answer out of Sony support, but I will check back from time to time to see if anyone has been able to answer my question in the previous paragraph about proving use of frame interpolation).

[Chesterflaps]

---

@Robbo9999 wrote:

Well Sony Support have come back to me, answering all 3 questions I outlined in my posts above.  Here's their response:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you for contacting Sony support.

With reference to your sent query, and after further investigation done, please find below answers for your sent questions as requested for your concern:

1.       Which of the Scene Selects activate the Motionflow? Which Scene Selects do not use Motionflow?

        · Motionflow is disabled in following scenarios:

                     A.      When TV Scene selection is set to Game, Graphics or Photo.

                     B.      Picture mode is set to “Custom” with 3D & 4K material.

        · Naturally menu for Motionflow is not active in these cases.

2.       Does your Motionflow on the KDL-42W653A use frame interpolation?

 · Yes. The human eye can see a slight ‘judder’ as it perceives slight differences in position between successive TV frames. This judder is most noticeable when on-screen objects are moving rapidly, where there is a large difference between the image’s positions in each frame. By increasing the number of images seen every second TV produces a smoother, more natural TV picture.

 · Motionflow combines native panel frequency with other techniques to make pictures look far smoother, and more natural.

3.       Does Motionflow on this TV work in the manner described on the following Sony webpage (referring to Motionflow XR 200Hz)?

 · Yes, Motionflow works with the same mechanism in all models, it just differs depending on the assigned refresh rate for each model (for your KDL-42W653A, it is 200Hz while it can be lower/higher in other models).

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, these were definitely the answers I was looking for, and they've finally stopped being evasive & vague.  So, essentially, Motionflow 200Hz is automatically activated on all presets apart from Game/Graphics/& Photo.  And this Motionflow also uses frame interpolation apparently.  I am surprised though, because it doesn't look that smooth, and also given HDTVtest reviews showing no evidence of frame interpolation.  Well, I'm happy Sony finally gave me a succint answer even though I do still have doubts over whether frame interpolation is really used, but I don't know how I can test for that.  Given what Sony have said above, is there anyone reading this that knows how to test to prove conclusively if frame interpolation is being used, please post in this thread if you know?

(I'm going to leave this topic now, as I've researched & questioned as far as I can and am at least pleased to have achieved a straight answer out of Sony support, but I will check back from time to time to see if anyone has been able to answer my question in the previous paragraph about proving use of frame interpolation).

---

Great work on this mate but they are talking rubbish for certain. There is no way there's frame interpolation on any of the settings. My mate has an LG and that has it and you can tell straight away when it's in action. There is no difference on the Sony no matter which picture setting you select.

I have had many TV's in my life and never had a Sony until this one. It is fair to say I will not buy a Sony again after I have been mis-sold this TV.

The sad thing is there is nothing we can do about it other than not buy again. But that won't bother Sony in the slightest.

The guy in the store was trying to get me to buy the LG instead of the Sony and I really wish I had now.

Lesson learned I guess.

<Message edited by Community Manager>

[Robbo9999]

Chesterflaps, that's a really good point!  I too still have doubts if frame interpolation is really being used.  However, there have been a couple of software updates for our TV since our discussions, and 'coincidentally' very shortly after Sony's confirmation to me that they use frame interpolation.  Since those updates I have my TV set on a custom 'Sports' mode making sure 'Film Mode' (24fps) is off, and it does seem a little smoother to me.  It could be placebo, but I do feel that Sony have changed something with their software updates for our TV.  On researching these software updates, Sony use these opportunities to release new software to make changes to their TV's (not always specifically documented - not all changes listed!), even the Motionflow settings have been changed as I've seen in some internet forums.  I think it's possible they've implemented frame interpolation now - it could be placebo though, and who am I to think they've implemented a settting based on my emails to them! 😉  I do like the quality of this TV bar this whole Motionflow debacle, but I do feel that I can see a difference in the smoothness since the updates over the last couple of weeks - BEWARE:  could be placebo!  (Definitely make sure you've got Film Mode off though if you want to experience Motionflow - that's one of my understandings).

[Robbo9999]

I do see your point though Chesterflaps, and I'm still not happy this has really been adressed.  I don't think Sony have handled this whole issue surround "Motionflow 200Hz" very well at all - it's certainly not made me think positively about them at all.  The only redeeming factor is that it's a good TV in other respects - if it had been an average TV and then there was this debacle:  well, then I would hate Sony & never buy there product again, as it stands, I'm on the fence, but suffice to say I'm not impressed!

[Chesterflaps]

---

@Robbo9999 wrote:

Chesterflaps, that's a really good point!  I too still have doubts if frame interpolation is really being used.  However, there have been a couple of software updates for our TV since our discussions, and 'coincidentally' very shortly after Sony's confirmation to me that they use frame interpolation.  Since those updates I have my TV set on a custom 'Sports' mode making sure 'Film Mode' (24fps) is off, and it does seem a little smoother to me.  It could be placebo, but I do feel that Sony have changed something with their software updates for our TV.  On researching these software updates, Sony use these opportunities to release new software to make changes to their TV's (not always specifically documented - not all changes listed!), even the Motionflow settings have been changed as I've seen in some internet forums.  I think it's possible they've implemented frame interpolation now - it could be placebo though, and who am I to think they've implemented a settting based on my emails to them! 😉  I do like the quality of this TV bar this whole Motionflow debacle, but I do feel that I can see a difference in the smoothness since the updates over the last couple of weeks - BEWARE:  could be placebo!  (Definitely make sure you've got Film Mode off though if you want to experience Motionflow - that's one of my understandings).

---

Hmm I cannot seem to find a Fim Mode (24fps), did you add the (24fps)?

The main thing I will be able to tell with oddly is Family Guy. It was watching that at my friend's house that made me realise that his LG has great interpolation. It's on in about half an hour on BBC 3 so I think I'll reserve judgement until then ha ha

Don't sell yourself short. You may have caused a ripple. We will never know.

I have turned off film mode so fingers crossed.